Do you have that female friend that you’re hopelessly in love with that unloads all her problems on you, only to end up back in the sack with that loser ex that cheated on her with her own sister, leaving you high and dry?
Posted by Richie on April 12, 2009
The Nice Guy is an online comic strip (and a comic book…and hopefully soon to be a sitcom or major motion picture if we can sell out fast enough)…
What, you mean it isn’t already? Because I distinctly recall sitting through God knows how many sitcoms and major motion pictures about a passive-aggressive creep’s unrequited love for a woman who’s got no say in the matter; surely at least one of them was fingerprint identical to The Nice Guy, if only inadvertently? Sorry, I shouldn’t be interrupting things this early. Carry on.
…about a guy named Jeff, his friends, and the trials and tribulations of being–YOU guessed it–a nice guy.
I actually first wrote an article about The Nice Guy four years ago, back when I was attempting to run a video game website without owning, playing or being interested in video games. I was also heavily in denial about my demographic’s emotional maturity, which goes some way to explaining why I thought using a video game website to mock resentful, insecure misogynists, rather than homosexuals, was a good idea. Said article was never commented on or referred to by the site’s readers, save for one email which read, and I quote, “All your stuff is awesome, except the one about The Nice Guy“. In a moment of Biblical misunderstanding, I took this to mean that everybody else had liked it, rather than, say, hated it and were ignoring in the hopes it was an aberration rather than an omen and I’d go back to writing about Bad Dudes next week. Anyone not already familliar with the rest of this story can probably guess how it ends.
But what makes The Nice Guy special? The premise is, after all, trite as trite can be; women would rather date jerks than nice guys, ergo any single dudes out there are now licensed, if not actively encouraged, to elevate their dateless schlubbitude to a plane of righteous, narcissistic martyrdom. Like their ascetic forefathers, they have sacrificed the pleasures of the flesh in order to bring about peace and happiness on Earth, but unlike their ascetic forefathers, the sacrifice is actually your fault and they’d be totally up for it if you’d just stop being so selfish and realised what you were missing out on, you contemptuous harpy. It also means that they get to treat you like shit and it’s still your fault, because they don’t actually want to act like jerks, heavens no, but they simply must in order to make you love them.
Lest you think the latter, less comprehensively documented facet of Nice Guyness is mere hyperbole, I present Dr. Robert Glover’s self-help book No More Mr. Nice Guy: Breaking Free From The Nice Guy Syndrome. At first glance, this may seem like it’s a book designed to help self-pitying men get over themselves. The website, however, contains startling evidence to the book’s true nature. To wit:
- The book contains “edgy outrageousness”, a red flag on par with “deliciously cynical” and “hilariously un-PC” in the reactionary tedium stakes.
- Warren Farrell thinks it’s “insightful”. What’s more, he’s not just credited as “Warren Farrell, PhD”, “Warren Farrell, Psychologist and Author” or even “Warren Farrel, Worst Human Being On Earth Nominee (Non-Pope Category)”, he’s credited as “Warren Farrel, author of The Myth of Male Power“. We can reason that, of the seven books he’s published, they specifically highlighted that one because it’ll appeal to the kind of people No More Mr Nice Guy is aimed at. In this case, it’s men who think “Say, according to the cover of this book, all that extra money and respect I have is mythical. I’d better buy two”.
- It’s also praised by Michael Gurian, a dude whose oeuvre I’m unfamilliar with, but has nevertheless produced the alarmingly-titled The Wonder of Boys. After overcoming my not unreasonable fear of Googling this phrase, I found the Amazon.com extract, in which an Indian physician informs Mikey that, unlike our fucked up Western matriarchy, boys and girls in India are treated differently from birth and are the better for it. Mmm.
- Quoth the website, “A Nice Guy’s primary goal is to make others happy”. No, a Nice Guy’s primary goal is to make others like him, and a book that wanted to deal with the issue would have been honest about this. Instead, it sets up a false dichotomy between genuine niceness and actually being happy before you even own a physical copy of the thing.
What this tells us is that, while No More Mr Nice Guy might be about the ways in which self-pitying wankery are counterproductive, its agenda isn’t really an improvement. The problem with being a Nice Guy, says Glover, isn’t that being an emotionally-stunted manchild who expects women to put out if you hang around staring at them long enough is necessarily a bad thing, it’s that it’s an inefficient way of getting laid. Therefore, the logical conclusion, given that women exist solely as things for you to fuck, is to do a heel face turn and become a pickup artist jackass instead. It’s like using Medusa’s head to kill the Kraken.

The Nice Guy, on the other hand, is one of the most brutally honest things ever written about Nice Guys, all of it unintentional. It’s a comic aimed at men who feel the same way as the authors do about women, but the authors don’t seem to have taken into account that anybody else might read it, a mistake even Jack Chick is self-aware enough to avoid. It expects us to empathise with a character who, despite being idealised to the point where we’re supposed to accept “involuntary decency” as his only character flaw, cannot help but come across as a manipulative, angry, boring, self-pitying misogynist manchild. Every strip – bar those that are just extended Firefly references which is, admittedly, an awful lot of them – is based on the premise that all women are vacuous, infantile bimbos who are utterly incapable of making rational decisions, specifically the decision to fuck the main character because of that time he helped them move house. This is a comic where we’re expected to elevate the hero to virtual sainthood because, and I am in no way exaggerating, he thought about raping a woman, but then decided not to.
Just who is our hero, though? His name’s Jeff, and he’s the one in the middle, busying himself reading and respecting women. On the left is Peg, who is self-obsessed and does not respect women, and on the right is Frank, who is a creep and does not respect women. Naturally, they both get more sex than Jeff, because women are stupid and don’t know what’s good for them. Jeff is a character conceived entirely out of self-pitying myths pedalled by Nice Guys who want to pass off their manipulative behaviour as selflessness, and the two-facedness comes across again and again, even in a goddamn fictional world which works entirely according to his rules. He does things for people and asks for nothing in return, then whines about not getting anything. He says he wants more from women than sex, yet the fact he’s not getting as much as his friends is a source of endless frustration. He derides women for wasting their time “rescuing” emotionally damaged men, yet his principal love interest is an emotionally damaged woman who he believes he can rescue. He… well, check this out:

What we’re looking at here is the first ever comic, and Mike and Tim start as they mean to go on. We’re told that Jeff is a nice guy who respects women as human beings rather than sexual objects, and yet the second this woman mentions she already has a boyfriend, he stops listening entirely and her dialogue is replaced with “BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH”. In other words, if she’s not sexually available, then there’s no no point in listening to her talk, and the punchline only works (well, works in theory) if we share Jeff’s viewpoint. If a woman had made a virtually identical comic suggesting that men only listen to women if they think they’ll get laid then the anti-misandry SWAT team would be all over it, yet this was made by men in the hopes that other men would actually empathise with it. The second comic runs along similar lines; Jeff is annoyed that a group of women have welcomed him into their circle of friends but don’t view him sexually, as if this renders all interpersonal interaction with them pointless. Well, of course it does; this is exactly how Nice Guys operate, treating all encounters with women as a form of speed dating and then getting annoyed when it’s revealed that the woman getting coffee was, in fact, actually getting coffee rather than cruisin’ for an emotionally co-dependent shitstorm.

Speaking of which, the woman hugging Jeff is Becki. Becki is the dreamgirl of insecure emotional abusers everywhere, since she has no self-esteem whatsoever and “always knows she can count on Jeff when things go wrong”, thus ensuring he’s around her when her guard’s down and knows all of her weaknesses. Because he’s a shoulder to cry on. Jeff is super duper 100% in love with Becki 4 eva, apart from the whole trying-it-on-with-any-woman-who-makes-eye-contact thing, but just can’t work up the courage to tell her. He decides to stalk her instead, culminating in one of the absolute creepiest comics in any genre and any medium ever, made worse by the fact we’re supposed to identify with Jeff. This kind of thing is understandable in younger teenagers who are still reeling from hormone-shock, but in an adult, specifically an adult who’s supposed to be a well-rounded, intelligent, caring man who’s doing his best to help people, it’s… Well, it’s like this:

I think we all have a pretty good idea of how you’d treat her if you had the chance, Jeff, and I’d also like to add that if you think Becki is dating losers and you’re not telling her, you’re not so much a source of emotional support as a giant whining albatross around her neck. This is also pretty common Nice Guy behaviour; deliberately wanting a girl to make bad choices over and over so she loses self-confidence and becomes easier to manipulate, though here, as in real life, it’s presented as “I didn’t want to say anything in case I upset you”. Hilariously, Becki’s bio lists “Men who treat her with respect” under “turn offs”.

Yeah, Mike and Tim, it’s fucking hilarious that your goddamn Mary Sue perfect hero wants a “counterpoint” to not committing date rape. ‘Cause it’s just such a crushing burden going around all day not raping women that even Jeff, the nicest guy in the universe, so nice he has two angels, needs a break now and then. In his own words, he deserves a counterpoint, as if there’s some kind of rate of exchange whereby you’re allowed to treat someone else’s body as your property once for every five times you let someone cut in line in front of you. In case the fucked-upness hasn’t quite hit home yet, I’ll reiterate: This is a comic about how Jeff is so nice that, faced with a drunk woman, he considers raping her, and is annoyed that he can’t properly justify it. In a comic series where Jeff is meant to represent a man who respects women. And it’s a comedy.

The artist respects women, too.


Helen said
Ugh, I hate that style of “artwork”. He’ll be snapped up soon by someone needing promotional artwork and then the rest of us will have to suffer.
Great post, Richie.
Richie said
Maybe he’ll turn the job down so that someone else can have it. He is the new Jesus.
bellatrys said
Good gravy.
Irony is dead, vive l’irony!
From time to time I’ve thought of doing a comic strip – kind of an anti-Cathy I guess – called something like “Things my father taught me” which would simply be the stuff my conservative dad used to tell me and my sisters when we were teenagers, exchanges like 8th grade P@L saying “How come all the women in movies are made to be screaming idiots?” and my father saying – not in a cynical, pro-feminist way, either – “Because if they weren’t, then men wouldn’t want to watch them” or “Men only want one thing from women, and you’re deluding yourself if you think that there are any nice ones who actually respect you,” – and then going on to tell my mother how much he “loved” her just an hour later! – or that “men do deserve to be paid more for the same work because women always leave to get married and that means that all the employers’ investment in their training was wasted” – and yes, all these are word-for-word, plus many more of the same ilk…the kinds of things that are always called evidence of “man-hating” when said by the likes of Dworkin, but which are considered Manly Wisdom vs Girlish Naivete among “traditional values” conservative males at home. This, not “feminist indoctrination,” is all part of why I had decided to become a nun by the time I was 13.
The only thing that could possibly damage “traditional marriage” is – not SSM, but traditional marriage.
Richie said
I think my favourite recent example of that was a bunch of MRAs (!!!) complaining (!!!) that women belong in the home because they’re inherently nurturing and were created to raise children, then later berating TV commercials which… depict women as the primary caregivers for children.
Margaret said
It’s been awhile since they put up a new comic (not that I’ve been checking…). How am I supposed to raise my blood pressure to disturbingly unhealthy levels now? (Because our whole society doesn’t do that enough for me, you see.)
Richie said
You can buy the print edition!
SamDoug said
“Another day of not raping women! I’m going to buy myself a coke!”
Debi Linton said
Here via When Fangirls Attack! and thanks very much for a great post, which I shall definitely be linking to.
Richie said
Thanks!
Femmostroppo Reader - April 13, 2009 — Hoyden About Town said
[...] Do you have that female friend that you’re hopelessly in love with that unloads all her problems o… [...]
Jamie said
Ugh… yeah, that’s pretty bad. And the worst thing is that I see enough of this in sitcoms, when really I just want to reach through, slap the nice guy and tell him that he did good not making out with a girl who’s really drunk.
And then slap him should he fall into self pity.
I swear though, wow, I honestly thought this was making fun of nice guys, pointing out that they’re the flip side of the jerk coin, but… it’s honestly played straight. *shakes head*
tallycola said
I know all the millions of sitcoms you’re talking about, none of which are particular gems of the small screen. The current forerunner is “Big Bang Theory” (why do people like that show?) but it can’t keep compete with your “the Office” or “30 Rock”. Because it sucks, the Nice Guy premise is annoying and lame.
In regards to the strip, if this guy isn’t interested in even being friends with these girls, why does he even talk to them? If he wants a relationship, learning how to be friends with someone first is a pretty good initial step.
It would also be easier (if more irritating) if Nice Guys just acted like this:
(It’s weird that they start with the longest one.)
tallycola said
What am I talking about, Nice Guys basically *do* act like that.
Jason said
Two angels? I think I’m going to be sick.
franzferdinand2 said
I love it when “nice” just means “not actively being a bastard”.
Hey Ritchie, good job on not perpetrating hate crimes in the past week. You deserve a cookie. We ALL deserve cookies!
L said
What sucks about the almost-date-rape strip (and the thinking behind it) is that, even if we were to complain to the artists about what they’re promoting, they’d come right back with, “But he didn’t actually go through with it! Because he’s SO NICE.” There’s no dealing with these idiots.
Nice Guy Syndrome « WhyI’mbitter’s Weblog said
[...] Go Here. [...]
QoT said
Awesome post, Richie! Horrific webcomic is horrific.
Margaret said
India apparently has its share of MRAs:
Or, perhaps, MRAs got ahold of that Sexism in India article. Ewwww.
Janelle said
(Seren here, just don’t go by Seren online anymore)
Oh god, this article is so very satisfying.
“Nice guys” make me physically ill, and I’ve dealt with them so many times that, admittedly, when I make male friends I tend to worry at first that I have another Nice Guy on my hands. They can be so incredibly creepy it’s jaw-dropping.
Richie, you hit the nail on the head again. it makes angels cry.
Janelle said
Oh, also, that giant shit-eating grin he puts on women gives me goosebumps.
Euny said
Ah, another top notch post. Good use of the word “wankery”, by the way, it’s a personal favourite.
I really like how clearly you point out the passive-aggression in the Nice Guy mentality, it is so very true and commonly experienced. There seems to be a lot of entitlement lurking under “nice guy” persona. I tell thee that particular formula has really bitten me in the arse lately.
Yeah the date rape one is mega-creepy, so for every time I drink and DON’T get raped there is someone patting themselves on the back and semi-secretly wishing they had gone through with it. Lovely to know. Or maybe I shouldn’t flatter myself.
And Janelle, I totally agree there is something going on with those grins. My money’s on misogyny (maybe othering of women? Respect indeed).
wiggles said
‘This is also pretty common Nice Guy behaviour; deliberately wanting a girl to make bad choices over and over so she loses self-confidence and becomes easier to manipulate, though here, as in real life, it’s presented as “I didn’t want to say anything in case I upset you”.‘
Huh! And here I’d assumed it always went down like that just because my male “friends” didn’t give a shit.
Richie said
Well, there’s that too.
Gabriel said
Richie,
Are you *sure* you’re not just trying to get laid by writing this treatise bashing faux nice guys, popular images of females, *and* jerky guys?
G
Richie said
Pff, only ugly lesbians read this blog.
tekanji said
I am so glad that I’m not the only one who felt that way.
Torri said
““Big Bang Theory” (why do people like that show?)”
I remember the first episode I saw I got the impression that Penny was actually in a relationship with Leonard, since there was no whining about not being together with her, they were friendly and she was helping him pick out clothes. I thought ‘This is awesome! a nerd show that doesn’t play on the tired old trope that no nerd could possibly ever have a girlfriend’
I was terribly dismayed when I went to a friend’s house and saw the first episode and realized that that was exactly what the show was combined with a huge dump of ‘nice guy’ *face palm* I just wanted to enjoy nerd jokes like discussing super heroes and Terminator and Star Trek… why!?!
agouti-rex said
When you started talking about the creepiest comic ever, I thought for sure you were going to mention the one where Jeff breaks into Becki’s house to decorate it for Christmas.
But the one you did pick did not disappoint for creepiness.
Richie said
Oh JESUS I can’t believed I missed that one. And she loves him for it! And it’s the Christmas Special!
cicadasinmay said
Oh good! They didn’t forget the shaming-of-women-who-are-not-petite-fairies. (Compare shamefully fat girl to Peg–kinda the same!) http://www.theniceguycomic.com/strips-morningafter.htm
Richie said
Yeah, the whole Frank character really pisses me off because he’s blatantly just there so the writers can do outright misogynistic (rather than misogynistic-but-pretending-otherwise) jokes and use “Oh, but Frank’s the JERK!” as a defense.
Helen said
Oh, god, that “artwork” is so awful, please make it stop!
attack_laurel said
These nice guys seem to think everything is like awards day in elementary school – you get a medal for everything except not completely fucking up – and then you whine when you did fuck up because you think you deserve a medal anyway.
One of the truest nice nice guys I know is a dynamo with the ladies because he really likes them and enjoys their company even when he knows there isn’t a hope in hell of getting any. So I married him before anyone else could grab him. Funnily enough, he still listens to me and laughs at my jokes.
“Nice” guys don’t get laid because they give off waves of creepy – and don’t think women can’t sense it. It’s in the way their eyes wander off when they think you aren’t looking at them.
attack_laurel said
…oh, and I linked this post in my blog.
Richie said
Thanks
Charles RB said
The sad thing is I’m betting if I read this comic I’ll find a strip that’s _even creepier than that one_. If not in archives, then they’ll make one later.
The others, however, are piss-your-pants funny if read in a “ha ha, look at the creator not noticing what they’re really doing”£ way. If they were making this character so hypocritical inside on purpose, this’d be my new favourite webcomic.
The Twelfth Down Under Feminists Carnival « Zero at the Bone said
[...] fortune. Because nothing Robyn Gibson contributed matters, according to the media. Richie has a post for us on a webcomic called, wait for it, The Nice Guy. The title pretty much says it all: Do you have [...]
unrelatedwaffle said
Was that strip written by Judd Apatow? /snark
If there’s anything more perfectly cliché than “Nice Guy,” it’s “Nice Guy Webcomic Artist(e).” Look at me, I did a comic! SHOWER ME WITH MONEY EVEN THOUGH MY ART IS TERRIBLE AND MY WRITING IS HACKNEYED AND LAME.
Where are those Obama reeducation camps they keep telling us about?
Yaoi Huntress Earth said
I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Tourain said
Like most extreme works, what little is published of the “Nice Guy” on this website, is one-sided. And like most extreme reactions, the criticism of the Nice Guy on this website is also extreme. I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
As the son of a single mother who alone raised both my sister and I, I can tell you that the messages about gender roles for many youths get mixed even when adults have the best intentions. My mother, no stranger to independence and open about her sexuality, did her best to instill in me a respect for women and a realistic approach to sex. When I was 13 she took the time to teach me about the importance of using condoms if I were to become sexcually active. She also taught me that there is nothing two consenting adults do in the bedroom that they need to be ashamed of.
However, as I entered my teenage years, this openness was not enough. As my hormones began to seethe, rather than being open with my mom, I came to feel that my sexual feelings were something to be ashamed of–they did not approximate the “beautiful” feelings that I’d understood my mom to insinuate. In time I learned to intellectually pretend as if I were open about sex, while emotionally sealing myself off from any stimulus that might arouse what I was secretly ashamed of expressing.
I grant that not every “nice guy” was deprived the presence of a father or other male who affirmed the “smutty” feelings and “sex-craved” fantasies of every growing young man, but I also believe that the mentality of male shame is pervasive. This tends to make nice guys manipulative. Their agenda is the same as every other heteorsexual male–to get laid and/or enter into a relationship with a female they desire. But they are simply more frustrated. True nerds are able to turn off their sexual desires to the extent that other things interest them. Sexually secure males are able to expresse their sexuality. “Nice guys” are sexually frustrated because nothing consumes their minds more than what they seem incapable of having–girls! Over time, even if their initial desire was to enter into a loving relationship with a specific girl, it is the sexual cravings that are hardest to repress or overcome. Love has a way of wearing away or simply being disillusioned. But sexual desires get stronger.
Now at 43, I’ve come to the conclusion that much of the anguish affecting nice guys stems from the false belief promoted by many social “progressives” that, all else being equal, somehow men and women are merely individuals with different anatomical features. I disagree wholeheartedly. I think that as long as heterosexual men and women are attracted to and need each other their will always be a need for a healthy dichotomy of emotion and perception.
In the British movie “The Snapper” there is a telling scene in which the father, in reponse to being chastised by his wife and daughter, has been sulking and staying home instead of going to the pub with his mates. Finally, after several weeks, the daughter has a heart-to-heart with her father, freeing him from his anger. The next scene shows him in the pub surrounded by his friends finishing off a joke with a punchline that uses the word “cunt”. Many progressive intellectuals would draw a mysoginistic interpretation of this scene. But most down-to-earth people know this is merely an insightful snippet of reality. The father does not love his wife and daughter any less for having told such a crude joke; if anything it is merely an outlet for his emotions and a reaffirmation of his role among his male friends.
This dichotomy, I believe, is natural and healthy. There is no point in trying to eliminate it because it will always manifest itself. As women become more comfortable talking openly about sex, men will seek even more taboo (read: off-limits to womeen) subjects to engage in. As men become more adrogynous(read: less stereotypically masculine) women will seek less sexually ambivalent men. This is not to say that all men and women respond this way. There are exceptions. Sometimes prevailing fashion lends more weight to one perception over another–one need only look at Ziggy Stardust or Prince on the one hand, and Gangsta Rappers or Kid Rock on the other. But all in all, the trend is always going to be toward differentiation between the sexes to the extent necessary to maintaine the tension and drama needed to make such attraction pleasurable.
I think more nice guys would benefit from simply getting rid of the self-loathing perception that their raw male sexuality is a wrong and intrinsically oppressive of women. Rather, they should remain nice and respectful to all people and learn to stop apologizing for their sexality.
links for 2009-06-13 « Embololalia said
[...] Do you have that female friend that you’re hopelessly in love with that unloads all her problems o… Yeah, Mike and Tim, it’s fucking hilarious that your goddamn Mary Sue perfect hero wants a “counterpoint” to not committing date rape. ‘Cause it’s just such a crushing burden going around all day not raping women that even Jeff, the nicest guy in the universe, so nice he has two angels, needs a break now and then. In his own words, he deserves a counterpoint, as if there’s some kind of rate of exchange whereby you’re allowed to treat someone else’s body as your property once for every five times you let someone cut in line in front of you. In case the fucked-upness hasn’t quite hit home yet, I’ll reiterate: This is a comic about how Jeff is so nice that, faced with a drunk woman, he considers raping her, and is annoyed that he can’t properly justify it. In a comic series where Jeff is meant to represent a man who respects women. And it’s a comedy. (tags: misogyny cartoons gender mras niceguys(tm) scumbags) [...]
zek ajack said
Wow, well your post is the ultimate example of Not Getting It. This cartoon wouldn’t exist if nice guys weren’t caught between the Scylla of women who confuse “nice” for “wimp” and “not confident” and the Charybdis of that fraction of crazed feminists who think men should feel ashamed of their sexual attraction for women, to the point that even guys who take the shocking, horrifyingly disrespectful route of doing nice things for someone they like, in the hope that the person will like them back (oh, the horror! oh, the manipulation!), come in for criticism.
PS: Having sex with a drunk woman who clearly, explicitly invites a man in is not date rape by any measure. She’s a grown up, she can decide whether or not to get intoxicated, and whether or not to invite a guy to have sex while she is. It may be taking advantage of a situation to comply, but then a significant part of the reason people get drunk is to decrease inhibitions in the hopes that they will get taken advantage of, often because they are too chicken-shit to admit and say what they want up-front.
Grow up and get real. If you want a truly progressive society, men and women should be equals and not fucking play BS games like this.
Richie said
Are you actually real, or is this practical joke?
Charles RB said
“Having sex with a drunk woman who clearly, explicitly invites a man in is not date rape by any measure.”
Except in several legal systems, where it’s classed as rape when you have sex with someone that intoxicated.
And, y’know, morally since they’re too drunk to sit up. I wouldn’t trust someone to remember their own name at that point, never mind consent to things.
Tourain said
“The initiator undertakes to be tentative enough and discourageable enough so that if he is to be rejected, this can be done delicately,. . . allowing him to maintain the line that no overture had been intended. And the recipient when desiring to encourage an overture does so in a manner that can be seen as mere friendliness should the need arise to fall back on that interpretation . . . . The initiator will not know for sure that his message has been received and that what the recipient did then was the answer; and the recipient will not know for sure that an overture has been made. An ambiguity thus results, but this derives not from some . . . failure of communication . . . but from competent participation in the relationship game.”
Erving Goffman. “Relations in public”. 1971 New York: Basic Books. pp.246–247.
David said
This is so cynical. Of course ‘nice guys’ have sexual drives but that doesn’t mean they want to fuck everything in a skirt, much less rape every woman, even just the pretty ones. Nice guys just want the best sex there is and lots of it and that comes from a good relationship with someone you love.
I’m not sure that all woman are happy with this idea. Some don’t like ‘nice guys’ as they are not a challenge. They go for the local stud who fucks everything that moves as they imagine they alone have the sexual power to enslave him and make him theirs. Perhaps sometimes this works, but the chances are it won’t.
Robert said
I’ve been a male feminist for seventeen of my thirty-one years on this Earth, and while I dislike the nice guy persona because of the aforementioned passive aggressiveness and find that comic to be pretty ridiculous, the biggest problem with this article is its use of the words “date rape” and “rape” in general.
Having sex with a woman that is intoxicated is not date rape, nor is it rape. Same goes for a woman having sex with a man that is intoxicated. It is not a case of the other person being decision-free, or having no say. The other person is not drugged, nor are they forced into anything.
Everyone knows that alcohol lowers one’s inhibitions before they even drink it, but it never gets rid of them completely. Man or woman, they still have a choice. I don’t really know why I’m bothering here, though, considering that when someone else brought up a similar argument, instead of forming any sort of counterpoint to their statements, you chose to insult them.
Vanessa said
Oh god you have no idea how many “Nice” guys I’ve ran into.
I’ve also ran into a lot of “Nice” girls as well, who act the same way.
agouti-rex said
Tourain, I’m confused as to what you’re saying. Are you trying to say that the problem is that nice guys are so afraid of openly expressing their sexual desires because that instead of honestly communicating with women they become bitter and manipulative? That was kind of the point of Richie’s post, I think. The only difference is that you seem to think that this constitutes a legitimate excuse for men to act like crybabies.
Zek — Yes, Zek, it’s all the fault of those mean ole women. I don’t think you’re quite clear on the concept of rape.
Richie said
“Having sex with a woman that is intoxicated is not date rape, nor is it rape.”
The woman in question is intoxicated to the point where she is unable to walk, stand up or form coherent sentences. That she’s in no position to resist is the entire premise of the comic. She hasn’t loosened up after a night out, she’s borderline unconscious.
Charles RB said
“Having sex with a woman that is intoxicated is not date rape, nor is it rape. Same goes for a woman having sex with a man that is intoxicated.”
Again, the law disagrees in several places in the West. Oh, and people who’ve been raped or almost raped? They disagree too. And in the case of the comic, it outright has her incapable of talking probably, moving, or sitting. How would you be able to consent? And if that’s not rape, why is it presented as a thing nice guys can’t do?
BadFish said
I think that artist learned to draw entirely from tracing Archie comics over and over and over and over.
Richie said
And then superimposing the female heads on to what appear to be Tomb Raider ads over and over and over and over and over. It says something when the primary distinguishing characteristic of his women is that they sometimes have different hair.
Charles RB said
I’ve just noticed everyone has the same facial expression.
It’s the effing Autons.
BadFish said
Heh, exactly. I mean, I see Betty’s face on Lara Croft’s body over and over and over. Sadly, it sums up the Nice Guy ideal pretty well. The unattainable girl next door type that just *has* to be a dynamo in bed…if only she’d let you find out!
Yes, we hate Nice Guys. Here’s why: « adrift and awake said
[...] If you want a laugh, check out the The Nice Guy comic, which I discovered via Crimitism (who has written a brilliant post about Nice Guys). [...]
Pickup Lines said
Yeah, I think the guy shouldn’t be commended for being a “nice guy” when he was just acting like any normal,non-psycho guy should act in the same situation.
Anyone who thinks they need to get a woman drunk to get laid needs some help.
Otssko Misa said
Are you familiar with this gemerald? : http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/niceguys/ng.shtml It’s required reading on this subject.
Richie said
Yeah, that was actually the article that, aged about 17, first sort of set me down the right path.
agouti-rex said
I just saw the most incredible thing. I was down at my local comic shop and I saw that they actually had a copy of “The Nice Guy” print collection on the shelf of independent comics.
Of course, I live only a couple hours away from the creators’ home base in Sacramento, so I can only assume that they were passing through here one day and stopped by to cajole the owner into buying a copy. Because I find it hard to believe that the demand for this comic is so hight that stores would stock it of their own accord.
For the curious: The plot involves Jeff getting shat on by everyone all day. Then the girl tells him that he’s like a brother. WHAT A TWIST!
Charles RB said
” I can only assume that they were passing through here one day and stopped by to cajole the owner into buying a copy”
God I hope so.
Richie said
He never once mentioned this on Twitter!
Thundercat In Training said
God I am tired of this Nice Guy bashing. I hope people here are over eighteen because we are not in high school anymore. Please for the love of God grow up. Nice guys are people just like everyone else. I would also like to address that I don’t believe this comic is misogynistic as this person claims. Also, it is important to know that I am NOT a fan of the comic nor familiar with the cartoonist or author of the comic.
“What we’re looking at here is the first ever comic, and Mike
and Tim start as they mean to go on. We’re told that Jeff is a nice guy who respects women as human beings rather than sexual objects, and yet the second this woman mentions she already has a boyfriend, he stops listening entirely and her dialogue is replaced with “BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH”. In other words, if she’s not sexually available, then there’s no no point in listening to her talk, and the punchline only works (well, works in theory) if we share Jeff’s viewpoint. If a woman had made a virtually identical comic suggesting that men only listen to women if they think they’ll get laid then the anti-misandry SWAT team would be all over it, yet this was made by men in the hopes that other men would actually empathise with it. The second comic runs along similar lines; Jeff is annoyed that a group of women have welcomed him into their circle of friends but don’t view him sexually, as if this renders all interpersonal interaction with them pointless. Well, of course it does; this is exactly how Nice Guys operate, treating all encounters with women as a form of speed dating and then getting annoyed when it’s revealed that the woman getting coffee was, in fact, actually getting coffee rather than cruisin’ for an emotionally co-dependent shitstorm.”
Okay, when any guy ( not just “Nice Guys”) hear the word “boyfriend” then they probably lose interest quickly. There is nothing wrong with meeting someone randomly that you find interesting and believing that there maybe a potential love interest. It happens to a lot of people so criticizing the Nice Guy for it is not only hypocritical but pointless. Also, have you consider that Jeff is more interested in a romantic partner then a sexual partner. To say that Nice Guy just wanted her for sex just for being frustrated at a woman’s unavailability is just unfair. Furthermore, I believe that most nice guys are okay being friends with women as long as they don’t feel castrated and as long as they are treated as equals.
“I think we all have a pretty good idea of how you’d treat her if you had the chance, Jeff, and I’d also like to add that if you think Becki is dating losers and you’re not telling her, you’re not so much a source of emotional support as a giant whining albatross around her neck. This is also pretty common Nice Guy behaviour; deliberately wanting a girl to make bad choices over and over so she loses self-confidence and becomes easier to manipulate, though here, as in real life, it’s presented as “I didn’t want to say anything in case I upset you”. Hilariously, Becki’s bio lists “Men who treat her with respect” under “turn offs”.
If a girl makes bad choices she makes bad choices. It is not the “Nice Guy” that makes the woman make poor decisions. She like everyone else is in charge of her own actions. If Jeff would have told Beck that she is dating a loser then you probably would be criticizing him for manipulating her to break up with her boyfriend. He basically trying to give her emotional support by telling her what she wants to hear. Friends do spare the truth sometimes for the sake of their friend’s feelings. Also, Nice Guys are not master manipulates if they were then they probably would already have the lives they desire. The more you demonize the Nice Guy the more he sounds like a bogeyman that you eventually realizes doesn’t really exist.
“Yeah, Mike and Tim, it’s fucking hilarious that your goddamn Mary Sue perfect hero wants a “counterpoint” to not committing date rape. ‘Cause it’s just such a crushing burden going around all day not raping women that even Jeff, the nicest guy in the universe, so nice he has two angels, needs a break now and then. In his own words, he deserves a counterpoint, as if there’s some kind of rate of exchange whereby you’re allowed to treat someone else’s body as your property once for every five times you let someone cut in line in front of you. In case the fucked-upness hasn’t quite hit home yet, I’ll reiterate: This is a comic about how Jeff is so nice that, faced with a drunk woman, he considers raping her, and is annoyed that he can’t properly justify it. In a comic series where Jeff is meant to represent a man who respects women. And it’s a comedy.
Does that scene really condon rape? Rape is forcing yourself on a person against their will or without their consent. However, I am not sure that having sex with drunken girl is rape. If “Jeff” would have drugged her or waited for her pass out from the alcohol to have sex then it would have been date rape scenario. Sadly drunken one night stands are not uncommon and it’s true that he would have been taking advantage of her impaired judgement (due to alcohol) but that still may not count as rape. If she was mentally or physically impaired then it would be a completely different story. Furthermore, the cartoon is about him NOT taking advantage of her when a least decent kind of guy would have slept her.
From my experience I don’t expect anyone to agree with me. I am just her to state my thoughts that people need to ask themselves a very important question regarding the Nice Guy and the question is why do you care? Why do you care about what the nice guy thinks or believes? Why go on the Internet and write long drown out rants about how much you hate Nice Guys? Why when there is really no reason? All the anti- Nice Guy articles that have read have the common elements their illogical, inconstant, and avoids any real dialogue. This Internet hatred towards the Nice Guy proves nothing the only thing that it proves that you care. If you really want to prove something to the Nice Guys of the world you should project a aura of indifference not bitterness and resentment towards them. The reason that a lot of people may care is out of the fear that they may be right.
Psychology Wiki almost accurately details the frustration of the nice guy and even thou I don’t agree with diagnosis it does give people insight on why the nice guy is constantly frustrated. People do take advantage of kindness, treat them like crap, and get nothing of out treating people they way they should be treated. The fact the nice guy get treated with very little regard explains why some develop low self-esteem. The nice guy is often criticized for that, but what most people don’t ask is where the low self esteem comes from in the first place. Instead people would rather assume that nice guys was simply born with low self-esteem. Nice guys don’t want rewards; all they want is have the same joys and pleasures as everyone else, which is human nature. Most people feel they deserve to be as happy as anyone else and nice guys are no different. Nice guys are simply human beings nothing more and nothing less. Please for all our sakes it is time to grow up.
In response to Tallycola
“I know all the millions of sitcoms you’re talking about, none of which are particular gems of the small screen. The current forerunner is “Big Bang Theory” (why do people like that show?) but it can’t keep compete with your “the Office” or “30 Rock”. Because it sucks, the Nice Guy premise is annoying and lame. ”
The Office has character who is a Nice Guy his name is Jim Halpert. Think about it.
Charles RB said
“Nice guys are people just like everyone else”
Yeah, but a lot of people act dumb and/or like big jerks. Did we learn nothing from Daria Morgendorffer, people?!
“Rape is forcing yourself on a person against their will or without their consent. However, I am not sure that having sex with drunken girl is rape… If she was mentally or physically impaired then it would be a completely different story.”
She’s unable to stand up or think properly, so she’s clearly been mentally and physically impaired by alcohol – that makes her unable to consent.
“Furthermore, the cartoon is about him NOT taking advantage of her”
But he wants to. That’s what the joke is: he wants to take advantage.
Janelle said
Actually, yes, there is something wrong with being interested in someone ONLY as a potential love interest. Which is what that comic is unambiguously about. This isn’t about being disappointed that she’s not available, this is about there being absolutely no point in listening to her because she’s not available. This isn’t subtext, this IS the text, as Richie has said.
Women don’t exist just to be potential partners, and it is, indeed, harmful and offensive to try to befriend any woman and not care about her as soon as you realize you can’t go out with her. How would you like it if you thought you made a new friend and it turned out that literally all he really cared about was going out with you? I can tell you from experience (plenty of it) that it feels like shit.
If you don’t care about her as a friend, how could you possibly make a good boyfriend, anyway?
There’s a difference between staying out of her business and actively encouraging her to be in a harmful relationship. If she had a drug addiction, she’d want to hear that it wasn’t a big deal, but that wouldn’t mean he wasn’t an asshole for telling her it was harmless just so she’d like him more.
Pssst – alcohol is a drug. Also psssst- sleeping with someone that drunk is, in many places, statutory rape. And even if you’re going to pretend that it’s not that bad to sleep with someone too drunk to stand, if you’re at least sane enough to agree it’s definitely a bad thing, then the point remains – the comic is absurd because it’s portraying him as an angel simply for NOT doing a very bad thing. Again, even if you’re not going to agree with the damn dirty feminists that sleeping with someone too drunk to stand is rape, then consider if he had made a comic that portrays him as an angel for not shoplifting something he wanted in a store. For not slapping someone who was boring him. It’s ridiculous how Nice Guys give themselves so much praise for NOT doing indisputably bad things.
I can’t believe I justified that with a reply, but this comment popped up in my email box and caught my attention, so eh.
Richie said
Oh no, I’m glad people are still taking this attitude apart, it really needs to be criticised as often as possible.
franzferdinand2 said
Also, always remember, Thundercat, there is a difference between nice guys and Nice Guys(tm). There’s nothing wrong with being nice. I know plenty of nice people, many of whom are guys. They just aren’t capital-N captial-G Nice Guys.
If someone is described as a Nice Guy they aren’t really nice. Imagine a guy who has a crush on a girl but just tries to be her friend while resenting her for dating other guys. That guy isn’t nice. He’s misrepresenting his feelings while trying to get close to her. Does he try to be there for her when things are bad? Guess what, genius? That’s what actual friends would do for her without the expectation that they get something out of it.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but if I come across as being harsh on Nice Guys it’s for two reasons. First, I have had a few female friends treated absolutely horribly by self-proclaimed Nice Guys. Secondly, I recognized similar tendencies in myself when I was in high school, and I was dead fucking wrong.
A few other specific points I wanted to make:
“Also, Nice Guys are not master manipulators if they were then they probably would already have the lives they desire.”
No one ever said Nice Guys were master manipulators. I would describe them as manipulative, and there’s a significant difference.
“However, I am not sure that having sex with drunken girl is rape.”
People have already covered this, but yes, it is. One person cannot give consent. If both people are drunk, then it’s a drunken one-night-stand. It’s a topic that comes up at most college orientations. That being said, it’s a tricky subject, and it’s not frequently prosecuted, but it’s still rape.
“People do take advantage of kindness, treat them like crap, and get nothing of out treating people they way they should be treated.”
This is one of the cornerstones of Nice Guys, the martyr complex. Listen, if people are constantly taking advantage of you and it pisses you off, you’re not nice, you’re just spineless. The other thing that comes into play here is the true difference between nice and Nice. It’s a matter of ends and means. If you’re nice because you honestly believe that’s the way people should be treated without being concerned with the outcome, that’s nice. If you’re nice because you believe that you should get something out of it, that’s Nice. Nice Guys are typically concerned with what Nice can get them.
Kayle said
Thank you for promoting a “yes means yes” standard for female sexuality. It’s not everyday you hear a man admitting that a “bad judgment call” on the part of an impaired woman can be considered date rape, even if you know she probably doesn’t want to have sex with you in particular right now. Your perspective takes into account that most women have been raised to honor a men’s “needs” above her own boundaries most of the time, and that yeah, you should take that into account before you try to have sex with a drunk woman.
And that if you really respect her as a person, there’s NO REASON in the world you shouldn’t wait until she makes the same offer WHEN SHE’S SOBER. Ostensibly, if she actually likes you as a person and would chose to have another date with you, you will have plenty of other chances to “get laid,”– again, when she’s sober. If you don’t think she’d have sex with you when she’s sober, why do you want her?? (To those who still aren’t following the reasoning behind the yes-means-yes standard, this is where “you are a disgraceful power-hungry abusive misogynistic monkey” or “you might be an alcoholic with co-dependency issues” comes in.)
Relatedly, in cases of women with a history of sexual abuse, they’re going to offer sex or behave seductively as part of a pattern of fulfilling expectations. In those cases, the offer of sex is usually in order to receive something other than sex from a romantic or quasi-romantic or even platonic encounter, but the ability to express the desire for something else has been underdeveloped (more than in most women, ahem). So, kudos to you.
Also, I am new, Hi, everyone.