It's going to be shit.
1. The Weeping Angels immediately became one of the most popular monsters in Doctor Who's history due to their clever and unique powers. They're portrayed by people in grey paint, and sometimes by bits of polystyrine. The production team still think fleets of CGI spaceships are a good idea, for some reason.
2. The name "Weeping Angels" was coined by the ancient Time Lords, as "The statues that can't move and don't kill you" wasn't pretentious enough for the people who brought us "The Medusa Cascade" (a big splodgey thing), "The Untempered Schism" (a hole with some blue bits) and "The Great Key of Rassilon" (a gun with enough power to kill a single Sontaran before disassembling itself and erasing the user's memory, which at least explains why it really is Gallifrey's last line of defense).
3. If they really believe in themselves, however, the Angels can move in plain sight and go around nonchalantly snapping people's necks, raising the question of why they were even in that story to begin with.
4. The sight of Matt Smith surrounded by Angels, narrowing his eyes and declaring 'There's one thing you should never, ever put in a trap... me!' makes the 'Make the foundation of this society a man who never would' scene from The Doctor's Daughter" seem a lot better in retrospect.
5. Similarly, the sheer desperation with which Steven Moffat gives the Angels new, often contradictory powers on a whim makes "The Vashta Nerada live in trees, and books are made of paper which comes from trees, so this library is a forest OF DEATH" look aesthetically and logically coherent.
6. And they're still more consistently written than Amy.
7. The letter J is forbidden in the Weeping Angel alphabet.
8. If the Angels are "Quantum Locked", then perceiving them through any sense should freeze them, not just sight, making them one of the few galactic menaces that would be rendered utterly helpless after a bad curry.
9. They're not as shit as the Toclafane.
10. My last girlfriend probably still likes them.
11. If you're ever cornered by a Weeping Angel, you can instantly escape by travelling back in time and helping yourself escape in order to travel back in time and help yourself escape. This will "finally" result in "a story with genuine intellectual complexity", according to Gallifrey Base and absolutely nobody else.
12. An image of an angel is capable of transforming itself into an actual angel by manipulating the way in which a conscious observer affects matter, which sounds like an interesting and creepy idea for a story until you actually watch it.
violent_rabbit said
ONE BIG LIKE RIGHT HERE
Everything I was too angry to type coherently! Honestly, so livid I lost all motor skills and any reaction to this man child nonsense to PA came out like this- rfesijohrfedswrgfew prgew pg!!!!
Oriniwen said
Also: double plus good wrapup at Shakesville, with the links at the bottom being highly reccomended by yours truly, of course.
You know, the rabid defensiveness and defense of everyone – the PA peeps, their fans, random commenters – *what* are you protecting? Your “right” to make jokes about rape? Your “right” to not have to hear other people tell you they didn’t find your scintillating wit entertaining? Really? REALLY?! That’s worth fighting for? That’s worth making the lives of people who HAVE BEEN RAPED suffer even more? I’d like to have a chat with the quivering and frightened shred of humanity left in the abyss of these folk’s souls cause that shit is beyond reprehensible.
Also, I lol’d for ten majillion years at the Pink Pigtail Inn today. LADEEZ. PLEASE STOP ANNOUNCING YOURSELVES. FEMINISM IS OVER. SEXISM IS NO MORE. GAMER CULTURE WILL WELCOME YOU FOREVERZ. I respect Larisa very very much, but I think she is far from the mark here. *Particularily* in light of the PA spectacle. PA =/= Gamer Culture … but, it’s certanly an aspect thereof.
Janelle said
Great to see an update! I missed this blog so but didn’t want to bug you ’cause I know you get busy.
Holy crap, it amazes me how much -effort- they put into defending themselves. If they were so -obviously- not at fault, why the hell would they need to spend so much effort explaining why they weren’t at fault? Classic case of not being able to take criticism.
decodevo said
Brilliant. Just … brilliant.
April said
Eh, I think you’re too hard on them. Gabe in particular seems to be trying to bury the hatchet without making excuses. At time it seems that Tycho just can’t stand to not have the last word, and in some of his statements he’s being a bloviating jackass, but I think your comments are unfair and paint him in too harsh a light. Yes, he does seem to think it’s all about him. Given that the whole shitfest erupted out of something he wrote, and his subsequent (ill-advised) response to it, I don’t think that is a particularly unreasonable perspective for him to have.
The stuff from both of them about how their critics are not evil isn’t them climbing up on the Cross, it’s them frantically trying to get their psychotic fanboys to stop sending death threats to feminists. You seem to automatically read everything both these guys are writing in the worst possible light, and it makes me wonder if you’ve become too invested in ‘winning’ and will only accept a full on groveling plea for forgiveness.
Richie, I like you, but when you see a sentence like this:
Can we all agree that threatening to kill someone’s wife and children, as happened yesterday, has no place in any fucking society
and the best thing you can think to say in reply is that the speaker is trying to hog the Voice of Reason Hat, you’ve lost it. Courtney Stanton has stated that she thinks the threats made against Mike (Gabe) are appalling, despite her objections to the things Mike and Jerry (Tycho) said. She doesn’t seem to think it’s hollow posturing from Jerry, and she herself has been getting threats over this issue, too. When she was getting threats earlier, Mike condemned those as well. So here we have the two principle sides in the controversy agreeing with and supporting each other against violent rhetoric, and you think it’s just PA mansplaining about how they’re the sober ones.
I don’t like criticizing you this way, and I don’t mean for this to be derailing, but really man, you’ve put your foot in your mouth here.
Richie said
I think that’s mostly fair comment, yeah.
I’m largely pissed off at them because of how long this has taken to come out, and even after their “education” it still feels very knee-jerk, like the whole thing happened yesterday and they’re in damage control. And had they done this the following day, rather than been snarky about it, we could have avoided a lot of bullshit. That they waited until Gabe’s family got threatened to finally declare “that’s enough” makes it very hard to interpret their comments magnanimously, even if they do actually mean it. I’d be much better disposed toward them had they said all this last September.
Then again, I sort of feel like, yes, after they’ve spent so long chronically mishandling a situation entirely of their own making, there probably should be some degree of grovelling involved.
I like you too, and I’m glad you care enough to call me things.
Cellycel said
I suppose I’m not much interested in Gabe trying to bury the hatchet without making excuses given that he mocked rape victims and people traumatized by rape, or upset with rape culture – didn’t say anything to the people ‘defending’ them by sending rape victims deth threats etc. for _months_ but when someone sends a threat to _him_ and _his family_ suddenly it becomes a big deal. To say there were equally disgusting things done on both sides is _untrue_ he also doesn’t apologize for the serious behaviors mentioned above instead apologizing for ‘being snarky’ – like, thats the worst thing he did.
A lot of Tychos reply _does_ seem to be ‘I’m the voice of reason.’
It was a piss poor handling of the whole situation, and I feel like it was a non-apology that came _too late_ it’s pretty telling that Gabe in particular has known about the behavior people were doling out on Courtney for months, but didn’t say ‘stop it’ until he became more personally affected. N’it doesn’t seem to be ‘bury the hatchet’ so much as ‘forget about it’
“The stuff from both of them about how their critics are not evil isn’t them climbing up on the Cross, it’s them frantically trying to get their psychotic fanboys to stop sending death threats to feminists.” <– That'd come across as way more sincere had they done it when they knew their fanboys were sending feminists death threats, rather then when one got sent to Gabe.
Cellycel said
Oh, a different thing that bothers me about their apology is they detail Gabe received a death threat, say things on each side were ‘equally disgusting’ and _don’t say at all what was done by ‘the people who think they are on our side’_ Like getting sent a single death threat by someone is equally as disgusting as the many death threats sent to women, the huge volume of rape threats or ‘you deserved to be raped’ sent to rape victims and pictures if mutilated women sent to people who have stated PTSD traumatic triggers are an issue to them. Its _disgusting_ to pretend that both sides were equally bad, and disgusting to present it as “I got a death threat, and people who think they’re on our side have done stuff equally bad” without _at all examining what the people who said they were on their side did._
It makes Gabe out to be an equally large victim of internet harassment as the women who were targeted for harassment. That is _untrue._
Panko said
Man, reading it this way makes Jerry sooo sound like Glen Beck.
Tweets that mention Ptolemy Arcade « Crimitism -- Topsy.com said
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by drst, Lyn Millett, Jess Zimmerman, Susan Jane Bigelow, Sweet Machine and others. Sweet Machine said: This = awesome: http://crimitism.wordpress.com/2011/02/05/612/ #thatshowitsdone [...]
Thaddeus said
These annotations are an immature exercise that only serves to fuel the already scorching animosity of this argument and, in an amusing way, show exactly what Tycho was talking about in the above annotated post.
People on opposite sides are seeing fundamentally different arguments taking place. There IS a lack of a common language — or, more specifically, a common understanding — that continues to hinder progress toward any real reconciliation. Some people are talking about the cultural ignorance/dismissal of the severity of rape, others are talking about the consequences of setting boundaries on freedom of expression, and many more are just internet trolls fanning the flames for shits and grins.
You are literally projecting your own point of view into what they’re saying instead of acting like an adult and trying to have a real conversation. You could take this opportunity to look at these lengthy posts by the two progenitors of the comic behind this whole mess, and really try to internalize what they’re saying and what it says about their own personalities and perspectives. From there, perhaps, you could try and sketch out the gaps between what you’re seeing and what they are seeing. And from understanding these gaps, you could try and create a dialog — that is an honest and forthright discussion of the issues involved, giving credence to the fact that all of the parties involved are different, individual people with thoughts and perspectives that are wildly disparate.
You are quashing the ability to build awareness. The more internet slap-fighting builds up around this, the less possible it becomes for anyone to learn anything useful from it.
The world has never been improved by arguing like you’re on the internet.
It won’t make anybody listen, other then the people who already share your point of view. And how does that actually help your case?
April said
Would it have been nice if they’d been more active in tamping down the crazy before? Sure. It is not true that they stood by and did nothing. If you go to http://debacle.tumblr.com/ and look at the timeline of events, it’s pretty clear that Jerry and Mike were out of their element, scared, angry, confused, and hurt, and in that state they said and did a lot of obnoxious shit. Now that they seem to have come around at least partially, I’m having a hard time mustering any more outrage at them.
If you want to stay angry forever, go ahead. Reconciliation and forgiveness are usually better, though.
April said
Gah, it’s late and I didn’t check what I was posting. I meant to mention that a detailed examination of the timeline shows that Jerry and Mike, while quite flawed, are not the cartoon villains you make them out to be. They did try (a bit, a least) to reign in their fans, and really there is only so much you can blame them for the actions of others. After they got personal emails from people who said that the Dickwolves shirts would make them feel uncomfortable at PAX, they stopped selling them.
This wasn’t malice, this was a miscommunication and ignorance and privilege combining into their usual vile stew. Continued vilification of them now that they seem to be backing down won’t help anyone.
Richi said
Yeah, I’m regretting… not being pissed off at them, but I am regretting basically vomiting it out like this without going into any depth about it, particularly as what pissed me off the most was they were being snarky and dodging the hard questions. Which is what I’ve done here.
Ironically, it’s now one of the most read things I’ve ever done.
frank said
Attack, attack, attack. That is all you are doing with this blog post. The PA blog posts that you dissect, or perhaps mutilate is a better term, are an attempt at conciliation.
The posts may still be annoying, the may still be clueless and wrong. But all you do with posts like this is cut of any chance of communication.
You ridicule them for doubting that communication was possible, while making communication more difficult.
Not everyone believes as you do, and many people react badly when attacked.
Maybe taking an attitude which isn’t confrontational would have been better. There is a lot of talk about triggers on this matter, but surely people realise that telling most men that they are supporting rape culture is a huge trigger.
Be patient and try to talk rather than attacking, that is my opinion anyway.
gordeaux said
This type of commentary (the OP) is an example of the many things that are wrong with the whole dickwolves debate. You can choose to interpret Mike and Jerry’s reactions and posts as some kind of subversive perpetuation of “rape culture” where they’re forcing you to accept their opinions against your own will, or you can just take them at face value and agree that there is no positive outcome to this mess. Furthermore, this is just as bit as snarky and condescending as any response that Mike every gave to his critics. Simply highlighting bits of text and adding your ridiculous interpretations of them doesn’t really advance the discussion very much, does it? The idea that they’re concerned about losing some vast swathe of their readership is equally absurd, since the number of people who will really stop reading PA because of this has got to be just some small fraction of the total. If anything, this whole mess has probably INCREASED page hits for PA. I probably wouldn’t expect a thank you card for all the extra ad revenue though. I’m sure they’re too busy producing an awesome product 3x a week and running a charity to deal with little things like that.
Winning an argument on the internet is about the most pointless thing anybody can hope to accomplish. That’s something we should all know by now, and while I’m surprised that it took Mike and Jerry so long to realize that, at least they’re big enough to say, “Fuck this noise.”
Chicagojon said
Awesomeness
Tycho’s post is frightening in its ignorance
AA said
This is hilarious! Love it.
Janelle said
I think Cellycel’s comments sum things up pretty well. I disagree strongly that this post was unnecessary.
Richie said
I don’t think it was unnecessary, but I do feel like I dropped the ball on it a bit.
Thanks, though.
violent_rabbit said
goedeauzx: THAT HASNT WORKED UNTIL NOW. olive branches have been extended repeatedly and all you get from the PA guys is “wahwahwah I canbt hear you over my privilege and how dare you tell me that I’m doing wrong”
Honestly, have you not read anything concerning this matter? FFS
Cellycel said
I’m not sure I did make them out to be cartoon villains, but I’m very unimpressed with their behavior and still unimpressed with their apology, which seems to be a non-apology to me in ways previously outlined.
“If you want to stay angry forever, go ahead. Reconciliation and forgiveness are usually better, though.” I think that sounds like a pretty unfair statement. Like folk think I’m just _choosing_ to be unthrilled at folk who went out of their way to provoke people upset by rape triggers, and then monetized it with apologies that don’t seem to address the issues to me. (N’yes, they pulled down the shirt eventually, but Gabe said he’d still wear his to the convention and continued to be pretty flippant about the whole thing.)
“Not everyone believes as you do, and many people react badly when attacked.” <– Please apply this sort of perspective to the people Mike and Jerry upset. People are upset for legitimate reasons, they're not necessarily 'choosing' to be angry, and if you can forgive them for being snarky and mocking rape victims who are uncomfortable with the perpetuation of rape culture 'cause they were upset and defensive, then please also give the same consideration to people who have been upset by their behavior. There is a legitimate reason to be upset.
Cellycel said
I repeat myself a lot. I should read over what I’ve said before continuing typing and then pressing submit.
Cellycel said
““Not everyone believes as you do, and many people react badly when attacked.” <– Please apply this sort of perspective to the people Mike and Jerry upset. People are upset for legitimate reasons, they're not necessarily 'choosing' to be angry, and if you can forgive them for being snarky and mocking rape victims who are uncomfortable with the perpetuation of rape culture 'cause they were upset and defensive, then please also give the same consideration to people who have been upset by their behavior. There is a legitimate reason to be upset." Crap I should edit for clarity. most of the upset at mocking people upset by rape triggers goes towards Mike. The only bit towards Jerry for that particular gripe would be his part of the second comic and his non-apology for it. The main thing I am upset with is that they were mocking people upset by rape triggers and their apologies ignore the gravity of that with Gabe just apologizing for 'being snarky, sarcastic and rude' I'm not seeing acknowledgment of what they did in those apologies, I am seeing them downplay what they did.
Also I don't actually think they did it out of malice. I'd be _more_ upset if I thought that was their motivation, obviously, but I'm really unsure how the fact that it was ignorance and privilege takes away from what they did?
I mean, I am happy the finally came out an unequivocally said that they don't support the harassment, thats great, don't get me wrong. There have been series of offensive things they've done though, and, yeah, I'm not seeing an acknowledgment of that, and so I'm not seeing a sincere apology. I'm seeing a "Please stop the harassment" which is a _great call_ as well as a "Please just top talking about it!" which is, I think, a bad one. They did horrible things, I'm not sure why I should just forget about that.
Helen said
I see the Dickwolves’ flying monkeys have come in. The attempts to engage these guys in conversation and “build awareness” have already happened. What was the result? Dickwolves T shirts. I’m sorry, but the pious references to “adult”hood and respectful discourse are pretty transparent in the light of the reaction to feminist critiques of privileged dudes everywhere: that is, fairly typical.
althus said
It’s a 5 month old comic that uses the word rape, it doesnt make fun of rape victims it simply uses the word. Rape was not the joke. Seriously, anyone obsessing over this needs a fucking life.
Or alternatively there are real injustices you can fight in the world, or you can hyperventilate about complete non-issues like this.
Shadow said
Fuck this noise.
gordeaux said
@ Helen,
Well, if feminists need some kind of crusade to martyr themselves in, this is a pretty shitty one. I don’t think Mike and Jerry care anymore. I’d ask them if they still care if I see them at PAX, but I’ll be too busy having a great time, and I’d rather not be a dick. Try not to judge me too much for not stopping to think of all the injustice they’ve sown.
Mindy said
Richie, don”t apologise you have done nothing wrong here. The PA guys aren’t the victims here much as their defenders would like to believe they are. Althus I don’t believe that anyone said rape was the joke. We fucking know it’s not funny, so why the fuck is it in a comic strip? Yeah real injustices my arse, stop trying to shut people down. Why don’t you go and fight some real injustices instead of whining because someone doesn’t like dickwolves?
attack_laurel said
Ignore the PA’splainers who want to pretend their side did nothing wrong. I <3 your takedown.
Richie said
I don’t feel I should apologise for calling them dicks, but I think it was a bad idea to criticise them for being snarky and sarcastic by responding in kind. Thank you, though.
Richie said
And also, I don’t feel the need to respond to all the “You’re just butthurt, get over yourselves and do something useful like I’m doing” people, since I recognise almost all of them from other blogs where they’re been comprehensively shot down and clearly can’t take a hint.
gordeaux said
@ Richie, also eveybody going on about PA’s “flying monkeys,” “defenders,” or “‘splainers.”
You definitely don’t need to apologize for calling them dicks, and it’s pretty big of you to admit that this is not the right way to criticize their actions. Were they snarky dicks at times? Definitely. I can say that and still say that I found both comics amusing. Does finding them amusing make me some horrible insensitive monster? I don’t feel that way. Am I secretly insensitive to rape victimes? Not that I know of. Is the only way for me to be sure I’m not pro-rape for me to somehow believe that I dislike these guys or these comics? That seems dishonest at best and impossible at worst. A lot of people I know and love personally are dicks at times, but I don’t go and rattle their cage non-stop expecting to somehow convince them to change their ways. I accept their dickish ways, see them for the good they are and have done, and move on.
The whole discussion is just so warped. Is everybody who is against them a raging feminazi and everybody who supports them a rape apologist? Probably not, but why then is this topic so divisive? What is the compromise supposed to be? I feel like there’s some expectation that Mike and Jerry will just throw themselves at the mercy of their detractors and grovel for forgiveness? Is that even what anybody wants?
I feel like a logical response to this comment could be, “well if you’re so done, and you think everybody else should be done too, then why the fuck are you still talking about it?” That’s a fair question, and I’m done talking about it except to answer direct questions.
NakedandFamous said
“And also, I don’t feel the need to respond to all the” (I’m more important than them, why should i waste my time responding to their wrongness?)
“You’re just butthurt, get over yourselves and do something useful like I’m doing” people” (deconstruction of webcomics is important stuff, THIS IS serious business!!!!)
“I recognise almost all of them from other blogs where they’re been comprehensively shot down and clearly can’t take a hint.” (Why dont these guys know that THEY are wrong and I AM RIGHT!?)
Also interesting you use the term “butthurt” willingly. Think about where that term comes from. Probably unknowingly but you just made a flippant comment comparing something to anal rape. I love the spell of hypocrisy in the morning.
Richie said
1. If someone’s been criticised, and their reaction is to run somewhere else and start the same argument in the hopes it’ll go differently, then yes, by definition it’s a waste of time to engage with them because they’ll just run off again. If you want answers so badly, and I’m fairly sure you don’t, then go read the 1000+ comment open thread over at Shakesville.
2. What happened was, and is, serious. The degree to which people like you have gone out of their way to try shutting down the discussion suggests that you realise that too.
3. See #1.
4. It’s an example of the language they’re using.
5. Don’t try to look smarter than me, because you clearly aren’t. Seriously, you’re an idiot. Go away. See? You don’t even need to read anything into that one.